One of the cool things about watching LOST is taking note of where I was in life for each season. When the show started in 2004, I was just starting my collegiate journey at Ohio University. When LOST ended six years later, I was sitting in Sun Prairie, Wisconsin with the former Queen of Arguments. In between I've watched new episodes of LOST while I was at Heidelberg, when I went BACK to Athens, and in two cities in the Badger state. To me, I feel as if I am evolving with the show, and the person who first started watching is not the same as the one when the show ended.
The same holds true for this pick 'em league. It's a little ridiculous to think we are now in the fourth year. The very first year was 2007 when I was in the process of moving from Heidelberg to Ohio University. Year two saw me finish up college and heading towards the real world. The third season brought me out to Madison, Wisconsin for a girl. And now, we are getting ready to leave Wisconsin, head to Columbus, Ohio, and attempt to get into a good law school. I'm sure if you did the same thing and think back to where you were four years ago it's probably a long ways off from where you are right now.
This pick 'em league serves as the constant. No matter how crazy or how ridiculous our lives are, this league awaits us each fall. It gives us both moments of exhilaration and periods of frustration, but it's always there.
But yet, just like us as individuals, it evolves. It's not the same league it was back in '07. It has changed, usually for the best. We've incorporated half-point spreads in every game to ensure no more ties. We've gone digital this season so one person isn't stuck inputting everyone's picks and having to keep track of standings. We've gone from eight members in 2007, to a staggering 26 last year. We've added special sections, new awards, and even an awards banquet. Who knows what the future will hold?
2010 is here, but before we can fully embark on that journey, it's time to take a quick look back on 2009.
- For the first time in league history, someone who didn't have a last name of 'Florence' took home first place. But, for the second straight year, a newcomer took home the crown, as Nick Lay put on an impressive display in the late weeks to win it all and claim a spot in the 2010 F'd Up Tourney. He finished 148-108, the second best record ever in the history of our league. Justin Whelan finished in 2nd, just three games out, Jamie Reamer ended in 3rd, while yours truly beat out Kevin Hunt on tiebreakers to earn 4th.
- Our league jumped in numbers from 20 to 26, and for the first time ever, league comments had to be cut-down. It became too heavy on reader's eyes to try and consume every comment that every league member sent in.
- There was the creation of the Bill Walton Award, which was the culmination of 17 weeks of outstanding quotes. A point-system was put in place, and the winner was Kevin Hunt, as he narrowly edged out Brian Boesch by 11 points.
- Kevin should also get credit for creating the Romo Is Homo haiku-storm of 2009. It showed up early and never went away. Nick Lay and Jamie Reamer had a season-long feud, and Matt Barnes tried to come up with a theme for every single week.
- In a surprise no one saw coming, Brian Boesch upended Kevin Hunt's Gus Johnson Award reign, by defeating the two-time champ. Boesch also created his F'd Up Pick of the Week which helped tremendously in earning the F'd Up Tourney's Enthusiasm Spot.
- The Quote of the Year went to Matt Barnes for this week nine number, "Way to go Browns. You woke the Bears. Apparently, they could also smell the menstruation coming from Eric Mangini."
- The other ten award winners were the following:
1) Casey Blake Award (worst ATS record) - Bart Borer (108-148).
2) Special Section Award - Ryan Polito's Knowledge Dropping (2nd straight year).
3) Swami Award (best special-pick record) - KOA (I Have Sunday Ticket and I'm Not Gonna Watch This Game; 13-4).
4) Wait Till Next Year Award (person who missed money, but has the best chance to make some next year) - Luke Polito.
5) Katy Perry's Hot 'N Cold Award - Jake Young.
6) Newcomer of the Year - Jeff Schaffer.
7) Most Valuable Player - Matt Barnes.
8) The Jake Delhomme Award (anti-MVP) - Anthony Tynan.
9) E-Mail of the Year - Kevin Hunt (week 13 chalk full of poems).
10) Mr. Consistency - Brian Boesch.
2) Special Section Award - Ryan Polito's Knowledge Dropping (2nd straight year).
3) Swami Award (best special-pick record) - KOA (I Have Sunday Ticket and I'm Not Gonna Watch This Game; 13-4).
4) Wait Till Next Year Award (person who missed money, but has the best chance to make some next year) - Luke Polito.
5) Katy Perry's Hot 'N Cold Award - Jake Young.
6) Newcomer of the Year - Jeff Schaffer.
7) Most Valuable Player - Matt Barnes.
8) The Jake Delhomme Award (anti-MVP) - Anthony Tynan.
9) E-Mail of the Year - Kevin Hunt (week 13 chalk full of poems).
10) Mr. Consistency - Brian Boesch.
- It truly was a great year, and even though the columns disappeared during the back-half of the season, the league got stronger, funnier, and flat-out better than ever before.
Now let's look at some of the major changes we are making for this year.
1) CBS is going to host our league this year. I will post the spreads into their system and you will go online to make your picks. No more e-mails, no more waiting around for standings (in fact there's a live-game scoring feature where you can see who picked who while the games are in progress), and hopefully no more confusion. It will be easier for everyone involved and should allow myself to focus on the columns.
2) We have a league e-mail - 2010nflats@gmail.com - which should be used for all matters related to this year's pick 'em league. All comments for our weekly columns should be sent here, in an attachment.
3) Since I couldn't have done a worse job handling the monies last season, I have appointed a league secretary to take over. His name is Kevin Hunt, and he will be in charge. Once we have a set number of players, we will decide what the payout will be. But make no mistake, Kevin's the man for all the money issues. He will be receiving and sending the checks this year and hopefully for years to come.
4) Last year was our first season with a live online awards banquet and it was okay, but this year I want to do it live IN PERSON. I will be living in Columbus here shortly, and seeing as most of our members are in or close to the state of Ohio, I want to make this happen. My idea is to rent out a location, put on our best clothes, and have an actual awards ceremony. This will probably only work with the help of you guys, but that's my basic plan-of-action.
Besides those four points, everything else will stay the same. We might have a new award or two develop during the season, but the foundation won't alter.
Without further ado, here are the 2010 NFL ATS Pick 'Em League Members.
What a lucky bunch.
2010 NFL ATS PICK 'EM LEAGUE MEMBERS (in alphabetical order, once league seniority was considered)
1) Matt Barnes - 4th Year - Awards: '09 MVP, '09 Quote Of The Year - Record: 2007: 130-126 (4th), 2008: 120-136 (17th), 2009: 136-120 (9th). 0/3 cashes.
The hardest part about doing these league intros is to find something different to say about the members who have been with us from the beginning. By now you know the story about how I met Barnes on the 2nd day of college and we have been great friends ever since. Got the pleasure of rooming with Barnes for a year-and-a-half, which included a great year at Bromley Hall. Since we started this league, Barnes has moved from Athens, to Augusta, Georgia, to Columbus, Ohio. If my mother had a pick to win it all, it might just be this guy. Hasn't cashed yet, but he racked up two quality awards last season and should be one of the prohibitive favorites for some major hardware come seasons end.
2) Luke Florence - 4th Year - Awards: '07 Mel Kiper, '09 Swami - Record: '07: 150-106 (1st), '08: 144-112 (2nd), '09: 140-116 (4th). 3/3 cashes.
I can honestly say that I have some sort of idea as to what Michael Jordan was going through after he won three straight championships. No, I did not win it all three times, but I did manage to cash every year thus far. Every year gets harder than the one previous. You feel as if you are climbing a huge mountain and your next step could be your last. This is now the time where I talk about picking up on trends, avoiding disastrous weeks, and aiming for ten wins per week. This year with the LSAT looming soon, a move back to Ohio on the horizon and looking for jobs/apartments, I will have my hands full trying to cash for an unprecedented 4th straight year.
3) Devin Frank - 4th Year - Record: '07: 129-127 (5th), '08: 138-118 (6th), '09: 119-137 (21st). 0/3 cashes.
If you take a look at Devin's record the past three years it's not too difficult to find the one that doesn't belong. D-Frank took an unusual nose-dive last year for a couple of reasons. One, he was overseas watching the "other" football. Two, he was busy studying for his Masters in Accounting. And three, his Tampa Bay Buccaneers were flat-out awful. In 2010 expect a rebound year for Devin. He's back in the states, about to room with yours truly in C-Bus, and he will have full access to NFL Sunday Ticket, which should help his run towards the top exponentially.
4) Kevin Hunt - 4th Year - Awards: '07-'08 Gus Johnson, '09 Bill Walton, '09 E-Mail - Record: '07: 138-118 (2nd), '08: 133-123 (12th), '09: 140-116 (5th). 2/3 cashes.
Not sure what disappointed Kevin more between the Browns signing Jake Delhomme or Brian Boesch winning the Gus Johnson Award? Either way, expect Kevin to come out swinging on both accounts right out of the gate. What gets lost is that Hunt has an excellent track record when it comes to picking football games. He has cashed twice and his worst record is a full ten games over .500. It might have something to do with his coaching abilities, as he is currently an Assistant Coach at Bishop Ready. Coaches have always done well in this league, dating back to Coach Big Al's '08 run for 2nd place. At the very least, it should be interesting to see what Romo Is Homo wave Hunt will create this season.
5) Brian Boesch - 3rd Year - Awards: '08 Newcomer, '09 Mr. Consistency, '09 Gus Johnson - Record: '08: 139-117 (4th), '09: 128-128 (16th). 1/2 cashes.
On a road trip with the Southern Ohio Copperheads a couple summers ago, I casually asked this guy if he would like to join my little pick 'em league. The year prior we only had eight members and I thought Boesch would make a nice little addition. Talk about the understatement of the century. This league was made for people like Brian Boesch. Last year was a great year for Brian (not including $). He won the Gus Johnson Award, created the F'd Up Pick Of The Week, and won a spot into the F'd Up Tourney. Using those three on his resume, Boesch landed a sweet gig broadcasting baseball games for the single-A affiliate of the Kansas City Royals this summer. If he wins the Gus Johnson again this year, Tom Hamilton better watch his back.
6) Michael Grothaus - 3rd Year - Awards: '07 Casey Blake - Record: '07: 106-150 (8th), '08: 120-136 (18th). 0/2 cashes.
Glad to have Monkey back for a 3rd year. After two disappointing seasons that saw Grothaus finishing either last or close to it, he took a year off to regroup. And now, he's back, re-focused and ready to go. We should be putting odds on whether or not Grothaus will actually finish the season, but Monkey is always one to stare adversity straight in the face. He's the only kid I know who walked all the way home from Bart Borer's cabin after a drunken evening. He's the only Buffalo Bills fan in the group, so he can relate to all of us Browns fans when it comes to crappy quarterbacks. This kid could finish anywhere in the standings, which makes him the "Wild-card" ala Charlie from It's Always Sunny. "I pulled a wildcard, bitches!"
7) Shane Kline - 3rd Year - Awards: '08 Wait Till Next Year - Record: '08: 137-119 (7th), '09: 139-117 (6th). 0/2 cashes.
Hard not to feel bad for this league member. In his two years he's won almost 280 games, and has not won a single cent. He was one game out of the money last year, and in 2008 he was just two games out. Based off that logic, the numbers point to him finally cashing this season. He's slowly turning into the Phil Mickelson of old, staking his claim to be the best player never to cash. One major factor that needs to be discussed is that Shane is living with two other league members, Hunt and Barnes. If Shane doesn't listen to Barnes (who really does, honestly?), he should be in good shape in 2010.
8) Chris Rapking - 3rd Year - Record: '08: 130-126 (14th), '09: 119-137 (21st). 0/2 cashes.
One of these years Rapking is going to put it all together and walk away a winner. Maybe it would help if he stopped picking the Cincinnati Bengals every single week, but it's hard to knock persistence. Persistence Rapking has, but it's consistency Rapking lacks. He's a two-time finalist for Katy Perry's Hot 'N Cold Award, just missing out in 2008 due to Justin Whelan's epic performance of inconsistency. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if the Bengals finally do win a playoff game, that will be the year Rapking collects some money in this league. Will this be the year? As a fellow ATS alum Curtis Kummerer lined, "it's possible, but not probable."
9) Ryan "Po" Polito - 3rd Year - Awards: '08 MVP, '08-'09 Special Section - Record: '08: 138-118 (5th), '09: 127-129 (17th). 0/2 cashes.
Over/under on the amount of Big Ben rape jokes this year should be right around 10,000. But you probably won't see any from Po, as he is one of the two Pittsburgh Steelers fans in this group. Last season was a difficult one for Polito. His Steelers actually lost to the Cleveland Browns. His younger brother came in and beat him. And, all the momentum he earned from his rock-solid 2008 season dissipated into a sub .500 2009. But, he did manage to beat out his partner-in-crime, Fiz, to claim his 2nd straight Special Section Award for his work on Po's Knowledge Dropping. In his own words, "VICTORYNESS!"
10) Justin Whelan - 3rd Year - Awards: '08 Hot 'N Cold - Record: '08: 134-122 (10th), '09: 145-111 (2nd). 1/2 cashes.
I have no doubt, none whatsoever, that Justin Whelan is going to break two records at some point in his - hopefully - long career picking games in this league. One, he will have the best single-season record, and two, he will have the most consecutive league-leading weeks as well. This guy can flat out pick games. Two years ago he entered the league and had the best weekly record for four consecutive weeks! Unfortunately he took a turn for the worse after that. However, he used that epic collapse as motivation to do even better in year #2, which he did, finishing in 2nd place. This is why I'm making Justin Whelan the odds-on favorite to win it all this year. Don't let me down sir.
11) Jake Young - 3rd Year - Awards: '08 Mr. Consistency, '09 Hot 'N Cold - Record: '08: 130-126 (15th), '09: 130-126 (14th). 0/2 cashes.
If Jake Young goes 130-126 this year we're going to have to name an award in his honor. Entering his third season, Jake hasn't taken home any money, but he has wracked up some hardware. He was Mr. Consistency his rookie year, and then took home the prestigious Hot 'N Cold Award in his sophomore outing. If he keeps up that pace, it wouldn't surprise me if he won the Bill Walton Award this year. As a big Green Bay Packers fan, Jake should be feeling good about his team's chances to be playing some meaningful football in January. Will Jake be able to buy some potential Green Bay Super Bowl tickets with his winnings from this league? Stay tuned.
12) Jason "Fiz" Fazzone - 2nd Year - Record: '09: 121-135 (20th). 0/1 cashes.
You could call Polito's special-section victory over Fazzone last season a fix. Fazzone clearly wrote more columns, and clearly showed more dedication. But, Fazzone forgot how important it was to show up for the live-online awards banquet. His absence ultimately did him in. Don't expect Fiz to make the same mistake again. He's already locked in to a new column with a new name, so be on the look out for that in the near future. If Fiz doesn't make any money again this year, his impact will still be felt. He's a past Quote Of The Week winner, and it wouldn't surprise me if he grabbed a couple more this season.
13) Eric "Huggy Bear" Hug - 2nd Year - Record: '09: 137-119 (8th). 0/1 cashes.
Not gonna lie, I feel bad for those people who bios follow this. I already had them typed up, and then my computer crashed, meaning I have to do it all over again. Not sure why I'm choosing this spot to vent, but Huggy Bear shouldn't mind. Eric Hug was floating all over the top of the leaderboard last year, but hit a rough patch towards the end and fell just a bit short. With his Oakland Raiders believing they are an improved football team, Huggy Bear should take that belief and channel it into this endeavor in the hopes of improving on his impressive 8th place finish from a year ago.
14) Nick Lay - 2nd Year - Awards: '09 Mel Kiper - Record: '09: 148-108 (1st). 1/1 cashes.
You could tell right away, from Lay's first e-mail of 2009 that the year was going to treat him well. He used Tecmo Super Bowl as his theme for the opening week, and Lay carried that momentum to the top of the standings. At the mid-point of the year Lay was in serious contention for the Triple Crown (Bill Walton, Gus Johnson, and Mel Kiper). But his work schedule got in the way and he focused his energies towards winning Mel Kiper, which he did with 148 wins (2nd best ever). Will he decide to go for all three this year, or just defending his crown? It's the biggest story-line for this league, and I can't wait to see how it develops.
15) Alex Lucius - 2nd Year - Awards: '08 Quote Of The Year - Record: '08: 141-115 (3rd). 1/1 cashes.
Just like Grothaus, I'm giddy with excitement of the return of this 2008 participant. Doubly so, when you consider I got the sobering news that Bart Borer would not be joining us for the 4th year. This league needs someone like Big Al. He's going to start verbal-wars with any and all Steelers or Bengals fans in our league. He's going to out-eat everyone during our year-end banquet. Coach Lucius is going to be near the top of the standings as evidenced by his '08 outing. Will he be able to take away the Quote Of The Year crown from Matt Barnes? Stay tuned to find out.
16) Luke Polito - 2nd Year - Awards: '09 Wait Till Next Year - Record: '09: 134-122 (11th). 0/1 cashes.
Yes, he is the younger brother of three-year veteran Ryan Polito. Yes, he shares the same name as yours truly. Yes, he is the winner of the 2009 Wait Till Next Year Award which places some high expectations on his shoulders. No, he does not share the same ambition towards the Pittsburgh Steelers as his older brother does. Luke rolls with the Houston Texans. No, he did not beat the KOA in the inaugural Luke Vs. The League contest, but he gave it a valiant effort. Will Ryan be upset if Luke cashes in before he does? Absolutely. But, just like with Rapking, I honestly believe Luke's best shot of winning money is if the Texans make the playoffs. Best of luck with that Luke.
17) Jamie Reamer - 2nd Year - Record: '09: 141-115 (3rd). 1/1 cashes.
As one of three remaining 2004 graduates of Tiffin Calvert High School still in this league, Reamer should be considered an experienced veteran of these pick 'em leagues even though he is only in his 2nd year here. Last year he took home 3rd place and had the best feud with Nick Lay. It's hard not to root for guys like Reamer, because he is one of the few people I know who are both Notre Dame and Cleveland Browns fans. We are a rare and dying breed.
18) Jeff "Spider" Schaffer - 2nd Year - Awards: '09 Newcomer - Record: '09: 130-126 (13th). 0/1 cashes.
Remember on LOST how they kept Jin and Sun apart for all those seasons? Every week you thought they were getting closer to their reunion, but every time they seemed to just miss out on each other. At one point, Sun thought that Jin was freakin dead. Well, that is how my relationship is right now with Schaffer. I can't remember the last time we were in the same room together, and it's getting to the point where we will probably share a Jin-Sunesque embrace the next time we see each other. Brian Boesch was able to carry the momentum from his Newcomer of the Year Award to fame and fortune. Will Schaffer be able to replicate? I can't wait to find out.
19) Erik "Smitty" Smith - 2nd Year - Record: 130-126 (15th). 0/1 cashes.
As you will find out in a little bit, there will be more than one Smitty this year. As for this one, see what I just wrote for Schaffer, and the part about being apart for too long will apply here as well. If I'm not mistaken Smitty is still at the University of Xavier, and he should be finishing up there as well. If he was smart - and he is - he will take his sweet time. The real world sucks. Last season saw Smitty put up a respectable 130 wins, which was good for 15th place. If he can put up another 130 wins but just add one win every other week to his pace, that should be all he needs to make some money. And we all know that college kids need the dough. Glad to have Smitty back, because just like with Reamer, those ND + CLE fans are hard to come by.
20) Corey "Prom Night" Taylor - 2nd Year - Record: '09: 135-121 (10th). 0/1 cashes.
It's hard to come up with the right set of words to describe Corey Taylor. In one of our fantasy football leagues, our commissioner described him as "Corky Thatcher." As for me, I think of him every time I pass a Meijer's. Somewhere in between those two thoughts is probably an accurate version of CT. At first look, you probably want to punch him in the face, and surprisingly enough, that's actually happened to the kid. But that first look won't tell you that the kid can ball, that he is a big Bengals fan, and that he is going to be a force to reckon with in this pick 'em contest.
21) Anthony "All Day" Tynan - 2nd Year - Awards: '09 Jake Delhomme - Record: '09: 122-134 (19th). 0/1 cashes.
It's hard to be good enough in this league to win awards. And on the flip side, it's hard to be bad enough to do the same. And yet, that is why we have the Jake Delhomme Award. To remember those who were epically bad. Tynan entered this league last year with an un-matched swagger. He claimed to have inside information, and for the first couple of weeks, when he was winning at an unprecedented pace, it was paying off. However, he stopped winning games, he stopped sending in comments, he even stopped getting his picks in on time. The result was a 19th place finish and a 12-games below .500 record. Maybe Tynan did this in order to fly in under the radar this year. And if that was the case, then well done Tynan ... well done.
22) William "Billy" Wakefield - 2nd Year - Record: '09: 137-119 (7th). 0/1 cashes.
Life gives us such great surprises that they can warm your heart. It doesn't have to be a big surprise, but rather a small totally unexpected surprise that can do it. I had one of those moments with Billy back in Athens. After buying a bottle of Blackberry Brandy, I had intentions of downing it mostly by myself, but when Billy saw what I had purchased, he became really excited. So excited that we decided to down that entire bottle in about 20 minutes. It proved costly because Kevin and I got smoked by some ringers in the finals of a big beer-pong tourney. As for Billy, it's no surprise he finished 7th. Only the best drink Blackberry Brandy.
23) Chris "Woody" Woodard - 2nd Year - Record: '09: 131-125 (12th). 0/1 cashes.
My favorite Woody moments include, but are not limited to the following: Woody bringing a flask to The Hangover, watching Kimbo Slice's UFC career end, celebrating OU's epic NCAA win over Georgetown, him laughing his ass off every time Mangini traded down, standing on chairs at Hooters last October acting like chickens, and listening to Woody bash his former high school classmate Tony Romo on a continual basis. Looking back at last year it's easy to forget that Woody actually put together a solid year. He didn't have any outstanding weeks but he didn't have any god-awful ones either. If he puts together a couple great weeks together this year, some money might be coming his way.
24) Adam "JC" Beatrice - 1st Year
At this point in my life, I can usually tell within ten seconds of meeting a new acquaintance if I'm going to want to hang out again. And, it takes about the same amount of time to decide if that person is going to get an invite to this league. To make a long story short, JC's status in our league was never in doubt. I've only met him once, but it was a great night. It took place this summer during the annual Huntapalooza where we drank, played v-ball/kickball, and hit up the T-Town bars. JC also has come up with a fantasy sports decathlon that incorporates about every major professional sport. Will he make great comments this year? I sincerely hope so. Will he win any money? Who knows.
25) BESS Club (Lumpy, Smitty, Louie, Hess, Ott) aka Kevin Brown - 1st Year
Well, this just got interesting. The BESS Club (have no idea what it stands for), consists of a group of guys who regularly attend Heritage Lanes after a round of golf on Wednesday nights. Some of you may know Lumpy as a regular on the Tiffin poker scene. Some of you may know Hess as a former next-door neighbor. Some of you may know Louie as a bartender at my high school graduation (Lumpy as well). Some of you may know Ott as my dad. And some of you may know Smitty as the guy who stood on top of a table and hit a golf-ball over a parking lot full of cars in an attempt to drill a nearby bird-feeder at my high school graduation. This will be fun.
26) Brian Hunt - 1st Year
Yep, you guessed it, Brian is the younger sibling of our four-year veteran Kevin Hunt. He is currently living in Alaska, serving for the Air Force. It marks the first time we've had a league member based out of Alaska and has me wanting to have a league member in every state before too long. As a member of the Hunt household, Brian is a huge Cleveland Browns fan. As one of only three rookies, he has a really good chance of being our Newcomer of the Year. Although I'm sure JC is going to be a tough guy to beat.
27) Jared "J-RO" Rosenberger - 1st Year
It's safe to say our league just got a lot smarter and better looking as a whole with this almost-late entry. I've been trying to recruit Jared for this league since it first started, so it's safe to say I'm really excited he finally made the plunge. For those of you that do not know JRO, let me give you the basics. I've known him since our freshman year of high-school when we played video bowling during class. We created Jerry's Baby Making Music while in college. He is my first phone call when I'm putting together a golf outing. He is half of the reason I have Brady Quinn's autograph. Currently, he is starting his Doctorate Program at the University of Akron and teaching an Intro to Sociology class. If the Browns make the playoffs this year, myself, Brian Boesch, and J-Ro are all going, no matter where they play. We are all silently hoping for Miami so we can yell LeBron James-driven obscenities.
28) Brad Trummer - 1st Year
Not gonna lie, don't know much about this guy. Kevin used to work with him at NBC 15 here in Madison, which means he also currently works with Woody. I'm not even sure if I've met him before. I do know that he is getting married in a couple of weeks, and on behalf of this league, I wish him and his fiance all the best. With weddings on the mind, here's my toast to Brad: "Here's to your first year with us, and your first year with your new wife. Here's to hoping for many more happy years ... on both accounts."
There you go guys. Best of luck. Ready or not, first game is tomorrow night.
Until next time, "read it, roll it, hole it."
1 comment:
Good point, though sometimes it's hard to arrive to definite conclusions
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